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文/哈斯廷斯 陆奇 张一甲
整理/马雅兰 张恒
来源：甲子光年（ID:jazzyear）
从传统 DVD 租赁公司到全球领先的流媒体巨头，从互联网泡沫时期亏损6000万美元到如今市值超2000亿美元，网飞（Netflix）的逆势增长显然不仅仅是一个“疫情受益者”足以解释说明的。
在企业家人群中，网飞一直是一个别具一格的role model。在硅谷，它与Facebook、亚马逊、谷歌并称“美股四剑客”。《网飞文化手册》更是被 Facebook CFO Sherly Sandberg称为“硅Ï谷最重要的文件”，被疯传下载超1500万次。
可以说，网飞不仅带来了让人惊艳的作品，其独特的管理理念和企业文化也广为人道。
在1月6日的‘甲子直播间’，网飞（Netflix）创始人兼CEO“里德·哈斯廷斯（Reed Hastings）带着他的新书《不拘一格》首次和中国读者见面。他与奇绩创坛创始人、微软前全球执行副总裁陆奇博士就企业管理和科技公司的文化创新展开了对话，同时，甲子光年创始人、CEO张一甲担任特邀主持参与了这一对话。
以下是陆奇对话哈斯廷斯的直播实录：
张一甲：大家好，我是甲子光年创始人CEO张一甲，欢迎大家来到直播间。
刚刚过去的2020年，发生了很多我们预料不到的事，一场疫情改变了很多商业生态，行业可谓旱涝不均，冰火两重天——对比线下，线上的优势大幅放大。比如电影业，停止了拍摄、主题乐园也陆续关园，很多电影延迟上映，而很早就转型流媒体平台的网飞，股价却飙升到了历史最高点。
说到网飞，就不能不提网飞自制的很多神剧，比如最近大热的《后翼弃兵》，之前刷屏的《爱，死亡，机器人》等，甚至很多时候，“网飞剧”三个字就成了内容的保证。是网飞成就了网飞剧，还是网飞剧成就了网飞呢？这个答案，离不开这家公司背后的掌舵者——网飞创始人兼CEO，里德·哈斯廷斯。
在刚刚公布的《财富》杂志2020年度商业人物中，里德·哈斯廷斯位列第四，和埃隆·马斯克一起二度霸榜。
为什么网飞能强势增长？为什么在网飞内部能创新不断？这是因为哈斯廷斯建立了一套反常识、反直觉的管理法则。
在网飞，你不用取悦老板，有话可以直说，不用担心有人给你穿小鞋；在网飞，没有休假制度，你喜欢休假就可以随时“飞去热带的岛屿游泳”——网飞的员工，就是可以这样无法无天。是不是挺羡慕的？不仅如此，网飞还给员工提供行业最高工资，让你的理想和荷包同步丰满。
你可能会问，网飞怎么敢这么做？给员工太多自由，员工会不会就放飞自我，把公司给造没了呢？
对此，在2020年底，哈斯廷斯出版了一本书，《不拘一格》，解答了外界的疑问，并发自肺腑地说：如果你给员工充分的自由，他们会承担更多责任。
对于很多管理者而言，他们很害怕混乱，于是，他们制造了很多规章制度去回避混乱，然而，网飞的做法十分不拘一格，他们喜欢“在混乱的边界进行管理”。对于这一点，我一直非常好奇，也非常期待有机会获得来自网飞老板的直接答案。
今天，我们很荣幸请到哈斯廷斯先生，这是他首次和中国读者见面！哈斯廷斯将为我们谈一谈网飞文化和他的这本《不拘一格》，NO RULE‘S RULES。
而且，作为《不拘一格》中文版的出版方，中信出版集团特意邀请了奇绩创坛创始人陆奇博士作为嘉宾。陆奇博士2008年加入微软，任全球执行副总裁，而2007年哈斯廷斯开始担任微软董事，二人就此结下了深厚的友谊。那么话不多说，我们有请两位嘉宾。
陆奇：大家好，我叫陆奇，奇绩创坛的创始人。今天非常高兴有机会能跟我的朋友里德·哈斯廷斯对话，他真的是非常出色的创业者和创新者，大家可以看到他在网飞（Netflix）所取得的骄人的成就。今天，有机会采访他，主要是就网飞的新书进行探讨聊天，书名NO RULE‘S RULES，中文翻译成《不拘一格》。书里面阐述了网飞是如何建立一种非常新，同时又有很大效率的一种创新文化，让员工在很大的程度上充分发挥他们的创造力，希望今天我跟Reed的对话能够帮助中国的读者更好的理解这本书，谢谢大家。
哈斯廷斯：今天很荣幸能够来到这里，跟陆奇、还有广大中国读者们一起聊聊。我很高兴我的书《不拘一格》能够拥有大量中国读者，这是极具意义的，因为现在有很多的宣传活动在中国举行。
It‘s an honor to be here today， and to spend time with you． I’m so thrilled that our book NO RULE‘S RULES has a Chinese readership， which make sense because there’s so much entrepreneurial activity going on in China today．
陆奇：里德，很高兴见到你，我非常荣幸能够有机会就这本书采访你几个中国读者所提出的问题。第一个问题，在网飞文化中，你提到了三个关键因素：人才密度、坦诚沟通、减少管控。说到人才密度，你是如何意识到他在新文化的建设中起到的关键性作用呢？
Reed， so great to see you． It‘s my distinct honor to be able to have the chance to interview you for several questions with regard to that book for the Chinese audiences and readers． First question， Reed． In that fifth culture， three key aspects： talent density，increasing level of candor， and reduced corporate controls． In terms of talent density， how did you realize early on is critical importance in building foundation of that new culture．
哈斯廷斯：嗯，我认为一开始公司规模比较小，可能只有五到十个人，你的确产生了人才密度。但你没有流程，你只有一些了不起的员工。随着企业的不断扩大，事情会变得更具挑战性，有些企业的人数可能是上百名，上千名又或者上万名员工。当你意识到“是时候长大了”，事情也变得很混乱，我们开始需要流程。
事实上，我在第一家公司就是这么做了。每当我看到问题出现，我们就会制定一个程序来防止它再次发生。所以我把它看作是一个恢复软件，接着，便形成了一个基本的管理模型。
事实证明，它可以减少错误，但也会限制创造力。如果你是司机，你必须遵守规则。但做创造性工作，并不总是遵循既定规则。他们不喜欢按部就班，而是工作在混乱的临界状态。《不拘一格》这本书讲述的正是为了将创造性最大程度发挥以及如何通过在混乱的边缘进行管理而不是陷入混乱。
Well，I think when you start very small and you just got five or ten people， you really yield talent density． You have no process， you just have some amazing people．
And then as you grow， things can get more challenging， and for some people， that‘s at a hundred employees， for some that’s at a thousand， for some it‘s at ten thousand．
What you heard is “Time to grow up”， things are chaotic， we need to put process in place．
And in fact I did that at my first company． I saw every time there was an error， we put a process in place to prevent it ever happening again． So I viewed it like a software regression suite， and then， that was a basic model of management．
And it turns out that it dose work at eliminating errors， but it also reduces creativity． Because the people who drive are the ones who follow the rules． And the people who do the creative work， you know， they don‘t always follow every rule． They’re not attracted by， like， process culture． They are attracted by working on the edge of chaos， and so the book NO RULE‘S RULES is about how to get the most creativity， by managing on the edge of chaos but not falling into chaos．
陆奇：你谈到要管理混乱的临界状态、释放创造力，能否就这一点具体谈一谈。在我们深入讨论这个问题的核心之前，许多中国读者和观众对一个问题很感兴趣，尤其是对初创企业来说，当他们还处于起步阶段的时候，聘用顶尖的人才一直是个难题。对那些希望请到最好的工程师和产品经理的初创企业，你有什么建议、经验、教训？
So crystalize， when hearing you say managing the edge of chaos and unleashing the creativity． Before we get into the core of that， many of the Chinese readership and the audiences are interesting in one question though， particularly for start-ups when you are small， when you are early，hiring top notch talents has always been a struggled， a difficulty we all face． Do you have any tips， any lessons， advice for early stage company try to hire best engineer best product managers in all that？
哈斯廷斯：人人都期待在这个世界做出一番成就，希望自己所做的工作有意义。所以如果能够想清楚这次创业会给世界带来怎样的影响，我认为这足以形成最强大的推动力，让我们完成英雄的壮举。创业的实质就是通过变革，为世界带来影响。
People wanna make a difference in the world， they want their work to matter． So if you focus your pitch on why the work of the start-up is going to make an impact， I think that‘s the most compelling thing that gets people to do heroic things． It’s to change something to make an impact．
陆奇：说得好，在混乱的边界进行管理，我真的很喜欢这个概念。
Yeah， so well said． And I‘m going back to sort of the core， managing the edge of chaos， I really like the framing．
张一甲：我也同意，这个用语很妙，在混乱的边界进行管理，但是如何把握这个度，既可以让员工享有自由并发挥创新，又不至于让企业跌入深渊，很考验管理者的能力，这就好像是在走钢索，稍有不慎就很容易粉身碎骨。
I agree with Dr． Lu that “managing the edge of chaos” is quite an interesting playing of words． However this way of management is tricky． It is hard to find a proper level of chaos when you want to balance the freedom of employees and the sound running of the company.It‘s like walking on a rope． With one step wrong， you may die． Ok， let’s continue．
陆奇：下一个问题，网飞文化的关键是交流。问题是，根据你的经验，你认为坦白到什么程度最合适？有时做过了头，混乱状况就变得不可收拾，不做呢创造力又无法充分释放。你有过这类经历吗？如何调整或管理交流的坦诚程度，你有何经验？
The next question is， the key part of the culture is candor in communications． The question is， in all of your experience， so how do you manage the level of candor， sometimes if you over the edge， chaos will be too much， and if you enter the creativity won’t be unleashed enough． Do you have sort of experiences， and sort of framing of how you properly adjust or manage the level of candor in communication．
哈斯廷斯：看看人类的演变，我们在进化中变得有礼貌，是因为我们和其他人一起居住在城镇。过于诚实会有危险，批评或被批评都有风险。我们必须意识到一点，必须承认一点，如果我们都能坦诚相对，我们能成长得更好。
成长是好事，大家都知道，它可以帮助人们应对痛苦。
比如我，你知道，就像我这样成功，当有人批评我，天哪！我也会心脏狂跳，面红耳赤，心烦意乱。我必须学会放下。我把它比作运动，强撑着做完最后一个俯卧撑，你会很痛苦，但你知道这样的痛苦会让你更强大。
所以，怎么说呢，它不仅对你的肌肉有帮助，对智力也有帮助。所以痛苦也是好事儿。痛苦使你成长，变得更强。如果能让员工乐于接受批评所带来的心理上的不适就再好不过，因为批评是为他们好。就像运动，如果过量，也会受伤。批评也是一样，他们希望批评是有理有据的，是可执行的，是实用的。所以批评也是一项艺术。但人对批评有天然的心理防御，这种抵触不利于成长和学习。
Think of human evolution． We have evolved to be polite because we live in cities and villages around each other． It‘s scary to be too honest． So this danger of being criticized or getting critic is very strong in our psyche， and what you have to realize and get permission to is if we can all be honest to each other， we can all grow more．
And growth is good that everyone acknowledges that， and then that‘s helping people deal with the pain．
Because even as， you know， successful as I‘ve been， when I’m criticized， my god， my heart beats， I get all red， I‘m upset． I have to let go． I try to remember it’s like exercising． And you know when you doing those last push-ups， it hurts.And you know from the pain， that‘s getting you stronger．
So then that‘s helping to say， it’s true of your muscles， is also true of your intellect． So the pain is good． The pain is how you grow， the pain is how you get stronger． Then if you can get people to be willing to take the psychological pain of the critic ‘cause we’ll make them better and not break them down， that‘s great， just like we exercise if you do too much， you get hurt， it recks your body． Also on critic， they want it to be supported， they want it to be actionable， very practical． So there’s an art to do it very well， but it‘s getting through our psychological defenses that we all have， but they’re counter-productive for growing and learning．
陆奇：确实，你所说的我也经历过，也因此得到了锻炼和成长。
Definite ， I saw myself experienced moments as you described the key phrasing of exercise and get in better intellectual．．．
张一甲：的确，就像那句“打不死你的只会让你更加强壮”一样，不管痛苦有多大，经历过后只会让我们的身体和心灵的铠甲更加坚实。而那些批评，虽然不悦耳，却正是我们成长所必需的养分。
几乎每一个成功的人都有过自己人生的“至暗时刻”。让我印象比较深的就是埃隆·马斯克了。马斯克在一次采访中说过，2008年是他最难熬的一年，这一年，特斯拉还在不断烧钱，SpaceX的猎鹰一号火箭第三次发射仍然失败，他和前妻贾斯汀也在这一年离婚了。
2020年11月24号，根据福布斯的报道，马斯克超越了比尔盖茨和马克扎克伯格成为了世界第二大富豪，身价高达1450亿美元，仅次于世界首富亚马逊CEO杰夫贝佐斯的1850亿美元。
他也曾在采访中表达过和哈斯廷斯类似的观点。他说，“如果想要开一家成功的企业，CEO们应该花更多时间去寻求批评，因为这会让公司的产品尽可能完美，而不是花大量时间去搞融资，开会和PPT汇报。”
尤其对于很多中国企业家而言，很多人把自己的位置放得高高在上，不希望别人的挑战和质疑，然而事实上，企业的领导者，你的成功不是由大家对你个人的褒扬来实现的，而是企业的业绩实现的——如果接受批评可以使得企业更强大，接受批评就是一种奖励。
好的，我们继续谈谈你的书和Netflix吧。你的公司在美国运营情况如何？
What you just said reminds me of the motto “what doesn‘t kill you only makes you stronger”．No matter how painful the challenge is， it will only build up our physical and intellectual powers． Those unpleasing criticisms are essential nutrients to our growth．
Nearly every success story has its darkest time and Elon Musk is one of them that impressed me． In an interview， Musk said 2008 was “the worst year of my life” as Tesla was losing money， SpaceX was failing the third time to launch its Falcon 1 rocket， and he was getting divorced．
But this year， Musk became the second-richest person in the world on November 24， surpassing Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg.Musk also had a similar view with you， Reed． He once said that CEOs should “spend less time on finance， spend less time in conference rooms，less time on PowerPoint， and more time seeking criticism of their product if they want to run a successful business．”
This is especially true for many Chinese entrepreneurs who put themselves high up and tolerate no doubts or challenges.In reality， your success doesn‘t come from others’ praises but from the performance of your company： If taking criticism makes your company stronger then it can be seen as a reward．
If you would like to， you probably can talk more about Netflix． So how is your business in the States now？
哈斯廷斯：很好，因为新型冠状病毒疫情的原因，人们有更多时间看剧，所以我们和亚马逊一样，是疫情的受益者。
The business is good， because in COVID people watch more entertainment， so， we‘re like Amazon， and in that way it’s a COVID benefit．
张一甲：我知道你的新书在美国亚马逊排名非常好，有人邀请你去学校或组织演讲吗？
Your book No rule‘s rules was sold very well on Amazon.Are you invited to give lectures or take part in big promotional activities for schools or organisations？
哈斯廷斯：似乎还不错，因为我认识的每个人都在读。这本书现在要进入商科院校，成为课程的一部分。它为创意工作的管理者提供了全新视角。
你知道在新型冠状病毒肺炎疫情期间，我哪里都去不了。所以还没有。
Yeah，anecdotally it seems to be great， because everyone I know is reading it． And It‘s getting into business schools now． and you know it’s getting to be part of the curriculum． There might be a different approach when you are managing creative work．
You know in this COVID period I‘m trapped．
张一甲：你是否可以用一个章节概述全书？哪些内容你特别希望中国读者读一下？
And I just wondering if you have to pick up like one chapter from the book to give a whole picture of the book to， especially to the Chinese readers， what kind of content you would like to recommend？
哈斯廷斯：我想说，这本书是为那些创意企业写的，这些企业对犯错有很高的包容度，只要他们创造了令人惊奇的东西。
I would say our book is for creative organizations that are OK with making some mistakes， some errors as long as they invent amazing things．
陆奇：下一个问题，里德，是关于反馈。网飞特别制定了4A反馈法则。中国的创业者们非常感兴趣，人们在想我们可不可以学习这一点。在你看来，尤其是从网飞的经验来讲，4A法则的关键是什么，怎么能有效地实施该准则？
So the question I was asking， next question， Reed， was regard to the feedback， in particular， Netflix， overall developed a 4A feedback guidelines． Our Chinese leadership audiences are very interested， there is a lot interest， people are thinking about how we can improve that． In your experience， what of the key points in that 4A guidelines， and how the guideline can be efficiently implemented， particularly from your experience in Netflix．
张一甲：抱歉打断一下，可能我们的观众不熟悉网飞的4A反馈法则。4A反馈法则是Aim to asssit，目的在于帮助；Actionable，反馈应具有可行性；Appreciate，感激与赞赏；Accept or discard，接受或拒绝。现在让我们把画面交给里德，来回答一下奇博士的问题。
Sorry to interrupt， Maybe our audience are not familiar with Netflix’s 4A feedback guilelines.The 4A feedback guidelines are Aim to assist； Actionable， Appreciate；Accept or discard.Now lets give time to Reed， pls answer Qi’s question．
哈斯廷斯：我想说，奇，关键是要不同于社会常规。在生活中，我们做到尊重别人，对别人有礼貌。工作中，我们需要打破常规，这样才能学到更多东西。我们相互批评。一开始这会让人很不舒服，但是就像锻炼肌肉力量。每天听到人们说“请给我一些建议”，慢慢的这种建议就是非常自然的了。可能在会议结束时，有人告诉你说：“会开得很好，但这个话题太大，应该留在今后讨论。”提批评建议不是抗拒或不尊重，反而是善良和诚实的体现。善良和尊重都很重要。
但是如果我们能够直言，也就是更坦诚，我们的组织会更好。我们所讨论的坦诚是指工作上的坦诚，不是对别人说我不喜欢你的穿着，或者被你吸引等等，这些与工作无关。我们谈的是工作上的坦诚，这不仅让公司，最终也让产品、服务更上一层楼。
I would say Qi， it‘s about giving each other permission to be different than the normal social contract． In human life， you know we have ways of being respectable and polite． We have to explicitly say we are going do it differently at work， because we can learn more． And let’s practice and give each other feedback． That‘s， you know，uncomfortable at first． And so you can develop the muscle， and then everyday heard people say “give me some feedback please，” you make it like you normalize but doing it， you know， more often than you need to． So it’s deadly learning so that they become comfortable at the end of the meeting， to say， you know， I thought the meeting went well， but you know we really didn‘t get to this big topic which we should do it in future topic． You know that’s not confrontational or disrespectful． So it‘s， often these things are attention of two goods． We admire kindness， and we admire honesty． We have to say， look into our attention， and normally we go by kindness and respect．
But it will be better for our organization if we go more honestly． So please can we all agree that what will be now is productive honesty， you don‘t want people say they don’t like how you dress or I‘m attracted to you， you know， there’s some other unprofessional honesty we are not talking about． We are talking about professional honesty to make the organization， then ultimately the product， your service better．
张一甲：没错，坦诚很重要，坦诚是今天的高频词。事实上，坦诚是很多一流企业家的共识。
比如，字节跳动创始人、CEO张一鸣非常推崇杰克韦尔奇的《赢》这本书，尤其是里面的“坦诚”二字。他认为企业成长的大敌，就是缺乏坦诚。
关于坦诚的重要性，张一鸣不断强调。他说过：“在商业生活中不坦诚实际上是一种自私的表现，为了让你自己的生活工作更加轻松，而这种以为却常是缺乏远见的。”
随着初创公司的规模越来越大，协作的重要性也愈加凸显。人多了就需要沟通，然而语言本身所能传达的信息就很有限，再加上我们会有所隐瞒，不够坦诚的话，初创公司就很难存活。
Well-said！ Being frank is really important！Nowadays， honesty is a popular word and in fact， it also wins consensus among many leading entrepreneurs．
For example， the founder and CEO of ByteDance Zhang Yiming． He really admires the book Winning by Jack Welch． Especially the parts that emphasize the importance of honesty．
Nowadays， team work is becoming more and more important， your achievements are based on the supports of others． If you are not honest， you will hurt everyone including your self．
陆奇：没错，你说得对。下一个问题是，回顾网飞企业文化创立和实施的精彩旅程，你一直努力给员工提供更多的自由，让员工承担更多的企业责任。我和别人谈到这个，都觉得这种做法很有趣。但人们对很多潜在的问题存在焦虑。你能否和我们分享，当你开创网飞时所遭遇的陷阱和问题。给员工越多自由，这种焦虑程度就越高。如果你能分享一些你的经验，会对读者很有帮助。
That‘s right， the next question is， look out to the overall journey of implementing or creating Netflix wonderful creature， what you really centre around giving employees more freedom and enable employees take more corporate responsibilities． There’s a lot of interest I would say， based on even my interaction with people that I know about． But people also have anxieties， if Iwere to follow some of the suggestions， potential problems stay if I‘m into． So the question is for you to share， when you are practicing， pioneering that culture in Netflix， all there any pitfalls you’re into， potential hidden problems you didn‘t forsee when you’re into and you have to adjust． Because as there‘s more interest in practicing this， the higher level of anxieties． If you can share some of the things you’re into and you need to adjust would be wonderful， and would be very helpful for the readers．
哈斯廷斯：这种焦虑是有道理的，因为任何一个组织都是一个复杂的系统，有一批相互关联的人，所以你需要有一个很高的人才密度，才能有自由，否则人们只会做出很多不好的选择。你需要定一个方向，那就是认同一致松散耦合，所以人们知道我们要用什么样的方式来服务客户。
有很多相互联系的部分，你不能只拿一个元素说它会起作用，因为脱离情景它可能不会起作用。
因此，一点一点地建立起信心，目标不是管理，而是激励人，所以把它看作是一点一点地学习如何通过激励来领导，而不是通过管理来领导或告诉人们该做什么。你知道工厂对我们的文明是如此重要，如此富有成效，所以工厂的精神模式延伸到许多其他领域，而创造性的努力与工厂不同，不能还让让老板自上而下地告诉工人们该做什么。所以要再想想，从管理到激励的转变。
The anxiety is sensible， because think of any organization as a complex system with a batch of inter-dependents， so you need to have a great talent density， to be able to have the freedom， or else people just make a lot bad choices， you need to be setting direction that‘s the highly alligned loosely couple， so people know in what way are we trying toserve the customer．
So you know there‘s a lot inter-connected parts， you can’t just take one element and say that‘s going to work ’cause out of the context it probably won‘t work．
And so it is building up confidence bit by bit that the goal is not to manage people， the goal is not to manage， that the goal is to inspire people instead， so think about it as bit by bit learning how to lead by inspiration， instead of lead by management or telling people what to do． You know the factory has been so important to our civilization， so productive， so the mental model of the factory beleads into many other areas， and creative endeavors are just different from the factory． And we still have the boss top down tell the workers what to do or orientation． so again think of the shift being moving from management to inspiration．
陆奇：是的，非常有道理，里德。因为你刚刚提到这个方面。具体来说就是与中国的合作。由于很多原因，中国的传统文化是“一言堂”，这是多年来的一种普遍的规范。过渡到不同的管理方式，尤其是运用情景管理而不是控制。现在人们看到了“放”与“管”的新思路。但很多人又不敢放弃管理权力。网飞从早期成立到发展壮大，再到今天在全球的领先地位，可能也面临过类似的问题。这个过程中你是如何通过情景来进行管控的呢？当今中国企业的普遍做法很传统，你在这方面的技巧或经验会给正在思考这个问题的中国观众带来很大的帮助。
Yeah， so this is terrifically articulate， Reed． with regard to corporations in China． For a lot of reasons， the culture tradition “one man control” the boss making the dicisions， sort of the common norm being many years． And transition into a different way in managing， particularly using contexts vs control． People see the potential benefit， but would be hesitant or fear of giving up controls． So you likely may have faced similar decision points， as you work through from the early days of Netflix to its massive growth towards today‘s powerful position in the world． In that journey， how you’ve been， sort of thinking about control in the context， in particular， giving tips or thoughtful experiences to the Chinese audience and readership would be very helpful for all of the readers who are thinking about this maybe struggling in it． Just because sort of the tradition the common practice in today‘s corporate world in China．
哈斯廷斯：在美国，我们有许多领导者，像比尔·盖茨、埃隆·马斯克、史蒂夫·乔布斯，他们令人惊叹，比上帝还要强大。他们要求更多的细节，给予更多的指导，这是成功的一个途径。你有一个天才在管理公司，其余人只要开会讨论天才提出的指示就可以了。公司的兴衰完全取决于这个天才的状态，公司变得过于依赖某个人。假设你就是这样一个天才，公司的核心。接着你想拓宽，想要公司保持健康。就像健身，公司的肌肉越来越多，你对公司的控制就可以越来越少。刚开始，公司会遇到很多难题，所以很多决定都是靠领导来做。但随着公司的发展，更多的人会参与进来，会有三百、三千、甚至三万员工，所有人都会继续进步、成长，学会独立思考。
In the US， we have many leaders like Bill Gates， Elon Mask， Steve Jobs， amazing leaders， and they‘re stronger than Gods.They command more detail， they can get more instructions， and that’s one way to succeed． You got a genius， you know， running the company， and just meet and get all the decisions to the genius， and the genius decides． The challenges with the companies is they rise and fall with their genius． They become too dependent on the genius． And so even if you are such a genius， then it‘s like you want to broaden， you want that organization to last longer than you and to be healthy， so then it’s building the muscle when you‘re doing less and less every year． In the start-up of this， it’s probably true that， you know， the leaders gonna make a lot of decisions， because it‘s so challenging with start-up． But again as you grow， you wanna shift to building muscle， so that all of the people are engaged， you’ve got three hundred， three thousand and thirty thousand， all continuing to improve and grow and think for themselves．
张一甲：对，是的，我同意这一点。确实很多公司在成长过程中过于依赖创始人，把创始人捧上神坛，由创始人来指挥一切，发号施令。然而，世界发展越来越快，面对未来的挑战，没有人是完美的，团队真正需要的是“少一点控制，多给到情景”。只有这样，一线的员工才能获得更为充分的信息，从而帮助你更好地决策，而不是把问题都集中到CEO这里。
奇博士，您那边还有什么问题？
I agree with that． It is a common situation that people in a company put their CEO on the pedestal and let him give all the instructions， let him tackle all problems， and let him control every tiny little thing.However， the world changes faster and faster， and nobody is perfect， to face the challenges of the coming future， what a team really needs is “less control and more context”． In this way， employees can obtain more detailed information and make better decisions， instead of letting CEOs．
Qi， do you have any other questions？
陆奇：希望还可以问两个问题。第一个问题是，从领导层面来说公司的发展，给员工更多的自由的同时，官僚主义依然存在。通常情况下，随着公司发展壮大，官僚主义会越来越严重。在这种情况下，决策速度会变慢，公司运行效率成了问题。员工拥有更多的自由之后，怎样在公司发展中能减少官僚主义的产生？想知道你对这个问题的看法。
Hopefully we can squeeze Reed for two questions． One question is， from our leaders， which is the following， as the company grows， when we start to give more freedom to the employees， the worries， the bureaucracy still remains， and typically as the company grows， the bureaucracy still gets more and more． To the point whereby， there‘s a lot of decisions slow down， and corporate efficiency also becomes a problem． People are interested in knowing your thought， as we give more freedom to the employees，how we also work to reduce the level of bureaucracy as the company grows．
哈斯廷斯：需要通过弘扬企业的价值观来实现，包括员工如何互动，公司有什么目标，在哪些领域有创新，客户面临什么问题等。如果你拥抱挑战，对彼此有清楚的期望，那么人们可以独立解决问题并做得很好。这是和典型的工厂思维模式——给工人下指示截然不同的。所以，这不是简单地交出手里的钥匙，让公司陷入“无政府状态”。相反，这能让你引导价值观，进行激励，在大环境中发挥更大作用。
You have to compensate for that freedom to be preaching about the values， both how people interact， and about what the firm is trying to do， what areas are innovative， what the problems are that the customers are facing． So if you bring alive the challenges， and you‘re clear about the expectations on behavior with each other， then you got another guidance， that independent people can figure things out and do them really well， as opposed to be told what to do， and organized the typical kind of thought of factory men． So again， it’s not you just turn the keys over， and let anarchy rule． Instead you‘re trying to lead values and inspiration． And set in context．
陆奇：里德，中国有很多人视你为创业创新的榜样。你有什么秘诀想要传授给中国的年青一代企业家吗？
Reed， there‘s so many people in China， look up to you as a real model for entrepreneurs， for innovations． Do you have any secret advice， key points， you want Chinese young generations， entrepreneurs，to be exact， to know？
哈斯廷斯：我认为最激动人心的工作是全球性的工作，像腾讯就是全球企业。我是腾讯全球化发展的超级粉丝。全球化业务让世界更亲密。我希望听众能够有创造的渴望，创造出在全国乃至全球引以为傲的业绩，同时使世界联系更紧密。
I think some of the most exciting work is the global work， like Tencent has been doing all around the world． I‘m just a great fan of their such a global ambition． That will help glue the world together． I hope all of your listeners aspire to create something successful and great in China， but also successful and great in the whole world and brings us together．
陆奇：非常感谢你，里德！你的智慧和思想对中国企业家来说意义重大。感谢你今天抽出时间接受采访。
Thank you so much， Reed！ I think your wisdom and thoughts will mean so much to China‘s entrepreneurs and innovators.We really appreciate your time today．
哈斯廷斯：期待在北京见到你。
See you in Beijing soon．
陆奇：期待在北京见到你。
See you soon.Absolutely looking forward to．
张一甲：感谢陆奇博士和哈斯廷斯精彩的对话，相信今天的对话，会给很多中国朋友们带来全新的启发。
今天的对话，让我想到陆奇博士在《如何解构一家企业》一文中发表的他的观点：要做好一个产品，最关键的是文化，而不是人才。
文化就像空气。看不见、摸不着，但决定生死。
2021年开始了，我们也都站在了新的起点上。我们正处在一个充满变革的时代，一个波澜壮阔的时代，我们正在从工业时代走向智能时代——新时代需要新企业，也需要新方法、新理念。
很多创业者、企业家都很喜欢阅读，然而，市面上大量的管理学书籍和方法论还是工业时代的管理学方法论，时代变了，方法也需要跟着变，但Netflix让我们看到，一个更加灵活、灵动的新时代的方法论；更让我们感受到，一种不拘一格的企业文化和精神。
因此，感兴趣的读者，真的可以好好研究一下这本书，相信你会喜欢。
今天的直播就到这里，谢谢大家的时间！
