近年来，去美元化、扩大本币结算的趋势在全球日益明显。中俄作为全球主要的经济体与重要贸易合作伙伴，两国间的本币结算合作不断取得新进展。
数据显示，今年前10个月，中俄贸易额突破1964亿美元，超过全年2000亿美元的目标已无悬念。俄罗斯总理米舒斯京上月表示，俄中两国已有超过90%的跨境结算在用本币进行。
就在中俄稳步推进全方位、多层次合作的同时，美西方的舆论开始“左右开弓”，一面渲染中俄“联手抵御西方”，一面声称“俄罗斯依附中国”，试图挑拨离间。
如何看待美西方的诋毁和挑衅？俄罗斯在“一带一路”框架下取得了哪些发展？欧亚经济联盟与“一带一路”对接目前进展如何？下一步将重点关注哪些方面？俄罗斯正在大力推进“去美元化”，采取了哪些行动？
长安街知事（微信ID：Capitalnews）联合中国人民大学重阳金融研究院（微信公众号：人大重阳）推出“全球治理大家谈”栏目。欧亚经济联盟一体化和宏观经济部部长、俄罗斯科学院院士、俄罗斯总统普京原经济顾问谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫（Sergey Glaziev）就“一带一路”倡议和中俄关系等与记者进行了分享。
格拉济耶夫表示，不要在意那些不友好国家对中俄全面战略协作伙伴关系的看法。俄罗斯和中国作为两个主权国家，可以根据各自的利益所在来发展两国关系。俄中两国领导人定期会晤，这是最高水平的信任和相互理解。
他还表示，如今，许多国家正逐渐在贸易结算或投资中转向使用人民币。在莫斯科交易所，人民币与卢布的交易份额已超过美元和欧元，未来几乎所有的中俄贸易将使用本币结算。
对接取得成功
知事：10月18日，俄罗斯总统普京在出席第三届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛开幕式时表示，“一带一路”倡议旨在推动构建一个更加公正的多极世界，是面向未来的重要全球性计划。他在此前接受采访时表示，俄方有意将“大欧亚伙伴关系”、欧亚经济联盟同“一带一路”倡议对接，以实现共同的发展目标。欧亚经济联盟与“一带一路”对接目前进展如何？下一步的重点是什么？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：毫无疑问，“一带一路”倡议是世界上最大的一体化项目。十年间，中国同共建国家货物贸易额从1.04万亿美元增加至2.07万亿美元，年均增长8%。倡议促成的投资也出现了显著增长，超过了亚洲和欧洲开发银行的投资总和。“一带一路”为后自由主义全球化时代国家间经济互动提供了范例。
在自由主义全球化阶段，国际经济关系的核心是贸易和货币管制的自由化。这种理论上的“自由化”在实际中为美欧的寡头和金融机构带来了巨大利益。在某种程度上，这是一场“零和游戏”，美欧的资本进入“全球南方”国家，控制了这些国家的主要收入来源，拿走了巨额利润，对许多国家来说不啻为一场灾难。但现在，自由主义全球化时代正接近尾声。
在新兴的国际经济格局中，焦点从僵化的贸易和货币监管转向了相互投资。在此背景下，投资者不必关心这个国家的货币监管或贸易制度是什么样的，这是对方的内部问题。中国的“一带一路”倡议就体现了这一转变，该倡议是未来国家间经济合作的典范，其理念是结合各国的竞争优势，促进商品和服务的流通，造福于全人类。
根据中俄两国领导人的决定，两国已正式宣布将“一带一路”倡议与欧亚经济联盟对接合作。未来，中俄可以在欧亚经济联盟框架下共享经济空间，与中国企业和开发性金融机构一起创造更多相互投资的机会。
10月18日，普京在第三届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛开幕式上演讲。
这些投资中大约有一半是在交通运输领域。俄罗斯作为欧亚大陆面积最大的国家，在联通东西方面发挥着巨大的作用。俄罗斯与“一带一路”共建国家合作最重要的优势之一就是“新交通走廊”的建设（即“欧洲-中国西部”国际交通走廊）。
电力、能源领域，以及商业和物流中心的建设也是投资的重要目标，分别占俄罗斯与“一带一路”倡议共同投资的20%左右。
欧亚经济联盟和“一带一路”倡议的对接是建立在欧亚经济体与中国大规模经贸合作协议的基础上，在一个专门的框架内运行。还成立了一个委员会，以促进俄中两国之间的交流，形成促进以投资和贸易为重点的经济合作规划。
过去三年双方合作成果显著，2022年，中国与欧亚经济联盟成员国贸易额超2000亿美元，同比增长30%。中国已成为该地区最大的合作伙伴，约占该地区对外贸易的24%，其中出口占38%，进口占18%，预计今年双边贸易总额将再创新高。而且，中俄两国的贸易额也从5年前的1000亿美元增长了一倍，这标志着欧亚经济联盟与“一带一路”对接取得成功。
目前，中国已成为我们贸易伙伴国中的龙头，是俄罗斯等欧亚经济联盟国家的第一大对外投资国和主要合作伙伴。与此同时，中俄还在积极加强在贸易监管和合作领域的合作。例如在贸易和物流等方面开展了数字经济合作，共同改进海关法规以简化流程，并在食品监管方面协调技术法规。
知事：您在今年的莫斯科经济论坛上表示，中国式现代化的经验对希望融入当今世界经济新秩序的国家来说具有借鉴意义。能否进一步阐释一下您的观点，中国式现代化的历程有哪些值得借鉴的经验？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：中国真正成为世界经济增长的第一动力，很大程度上得益于中国创新的经济调控体制。中国是成功地将多种经济形式结合在一起的一个引人注目的范例。中国创造性地将社会主义国家的计划经济的智慧与市场经济结合起来，在社会主义制度下，使市场在宏观调控下对资源配置起决定性作用。这种结合，将私人企业家的创新精神与政府对货币创造和价格监管的宏观调控相结合。中国模式证明了将中央计划和战略管理机制与市场竞争、企业家精神相结合，可以实现最高效率。借此，中国有效地为生产增长和新技术引进创造了良好的条件，显著地带动了中国的经济增长。
中国的另一个奇迹，是中国结合了社会主义经济学和资本主义经济学的优点，制定出新的经济政策。我认为，在中国政治和社会制度中起主导作用的仍然是、并将继续是社会主义意识形态，同时在其经济制度中也存在市场机制。这些因素结合在一起，形成了中国国民经济的巨大竞争优势，使中国能够追求自己的产业利益，也为各国之间的经济合作提供了巨大的新机遇。
中国是引领互利共赢国际合作的典范，成为了许多国家眼中的榜样，中国用自身的发展实践展示了如何有效地综合经济增长的各种因素，如何调动一切资源来促进经济增长、提高人民福祉。中国这种以人民生活水平的提高和生产的增长为标准的市场调节，会让那些创造新发展模式、提供更多服务、为社会整体福祉做出更大贡献的企业得到国家更多的支持。
中国为其他国家提供了一个范例，展示了制度优势。中国保持经济长期稳定增长的经验也适用于其他国家，不仅能用于基础设施建设、经贸和投资领域，也为各自的国民经济增长方式提供了借鉴。围绕中国式现代化实现方法的讨论仍在继续，中国也将继续扮演世界经济增长的最大引擎这一角色。
未来几乎所有中俄贸易将用本币结算
知事：“去美元化”正在成为国际社会一个热词。在今年的金砖峰会上，俄罗斯总统普京在视频致辞中表示，金砖国家之间“去美元化”进程不可逆转，且正在提速。俄罗斯在“去美元化”方面已经做了哪些工作？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：由于技术和经济模式的变化，发展中国家的社会经济正在经历结构性变化，在通往现代化的路上，他们遇到了“拦路虎”，那就是美欧正利用其在世界金融体系中的优势来达到政治目的，试图维持对世界储备货币的支配地位。
但局势已经越来越明了，这场由美欧发起的“隐秘战争”注定要失败。西方国家曾经引以为傲的竞争优势，例如创建全球货币并将其作为一种政治架构的模式，如今已经逐渐失去力量。人们对美西方政治体系的信任度正在下降，对其货币作为可靠的储蓄和投资工具的信心也受到动摇。
作为对美国及其欧洲盟友扣押俄罗斯外汇储备以及将俄罗斯排除在西方金融体系之外的回应，俄罗斯选择与西方货币保持距离，这些货币被西方用作政治压迫的工具，甚至作为反对独立主权国家的武器。
俄罗斯将建立更安全的金融基础设施，使用数字货币和区块链技术来规避国际银行实施的惩罚性措施。通过推进在国际贸易中使用各国数字货币进行结算，并建立国家数字货币市场来促进各国之间的支付和国际结算。
俄罗斯中央银行大楼资料图。
此外，为满足我们的共同项目和相互贸易的资金需求，应引入一种新的国际数字货币。这种国际数字货币应以“两种货币篮子”为基础：第一个“篮子”包含了参与此协议的各方的国家货币，意味着新的国际数字货币的价值将由参与国家的国家货币权重构成；而第二个“篮子”则包括了所有各方共同生产和消费的商品，这表示新的数字货币的价值也将与各方参与的经济活动和商品贸易有关。这种货币可以作为避免通货膨胀的稳定工具，并为参与国的贸易提供透明和便捷的支付方式。
如今，许多国家正逐渐在贸易结算或投资中转向使用人民币。在莫斯科交易所，人民币与卢布的交易份额已超过美元和欧元，未来几乎所有的中俄贸易将使用本币结算。其他欧亚经济联盟国家也呈现出越来越倾向于使用本国货币的趋势，在贸易和投资中目前约85%的交易额是用本国货币进行。
使用本国货币交易结算的趋势一旦开启就难以停止，因为不再使用西方货币了，这会带来巨大的政治风险，可能导致出口收入的损失。对了应对这种局面，必须建立起可以用来融资、相互贸易、相互投资、促进合作的新工具，在对外贸易中使用本国货币只是第一步。
虽然使用本国货币进行交易可以减少一些风险，但仍然存在一些难以解决的问题。其中最主要的问题是价格形成依赖于其他国家，即商品估值仍然依赖于美国、英国和欧洲的交易所来确定，这会导致商品价格波动和贸易关系的不稳定。
因此，我们需要建立自己的、稳定的、可持续的商品价格形成机制，引入新的国际数字货币有助于实现这一目标。
我们有望在不久的将来引进这种新的数字货币作为国际货币，其技术基础已经非常成熟，因为已经有成功的试点模型。我个人希望在不久的将来，金砖国家与“一带一路”倡议的参与者一道，举行国际会议，引进这一新的国际货币经济模式，并签署实施这一模式的国际协议。根据我所概述的特点，新型国际货币的引进迫在眉睫。
知事：目前印度尼西亚、伊朗、俄罗斯、阿根廷等多个国家正逐渐在贸易结算或投资中转向使用人民币。稳步推进人民币国际化，增强中国在国际事务中的话语权和自主权，您有哪些建议？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：正如我前面提到的，我们目前正在用本国货币进行贸易，而且比例正在上升。就俄罗斯而言，中国作为重要的对外贸易伙伴和主要的外国投资者，当然应该参与到我们共同的金融体系中。
对于不同国家的中央银行来说，参与俄罗斯支付系统的机会是巨大的。我们已经在莫斯科交易所开通了卢布与人民币的交易，其中人民币的份额超过了美元和欧元。
因此，人民币的使用正在稳步增加，更适合我们之间的贸易和投资。我相信在不久的将来，俄罗斯和中国之间几乎所有的贸易都将以卢布和人民币结算。在其他欧亚经济联盟国家，我们也观察到类似的趋势——越来越倾向于使用本国货币。
然而，正如前面所说到的，以本国货币进行交易并不是最优的，因为仍然存在一个主要问题，即价格形成。我们的商品价格形成仍然依赖于美国、英国和欧洲的交易所。在西方体系中，国际投机也在价格形成中起着主要作用。依赖其他国家确定的价格会导致商品价格波动，给贸易关系带来重大挑战。特别是由于大宗商品的波动性非常大，我们难以甚至无法规划长期投资。
为了应对这种挑战，我们必须建立自己的欧亚价格形成体系，以消除西方价格形成体系的影响。同时，我们必须与商品的生产者和消费者建立起直接联系，以此来降低对国际投机者的依赖。
我们将从追求投机价格转向追求长期价格稳定，这对俄罗斯的稳定和可持续发展非常重要。只有采用一种新的国际货币才能实现这一目标，因为现有的国际货币有其自身的特点，会造成波动。我们提出的新货币体系将非常稳定、高效、便捷，不仅为支付提供便利，而且为价格形成提供条件。
总的来说，尽管人民币和卢布在中俄贸易中所占的份额正在上升，但也不能放弃引进一种新的国际储备货币。这一倡议符合我们的共同利益，应当引起重视。
知事：当地时间9月4日，普京在主持召开能源问题会议时表示，尽管遭受了来自一些国家公开的敌对行动和非法的限制及制裁，俄罗斯能源企业总体上继续发展，成功地在对外贸易领域寻找新的可靠的合作伙伴。俄罗斯受制裁影响如何？美西方发起的制裁成功了吗？如何评价美国的制裁行径？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：正如我们所看到的，根据统计数据，俄罗斯经济继续增长。制裁对于遏制俄罗斯经济增长没有起到任何重要作用。尽管世界银行和国际货币基金组织等机构曾预计2022年俄罗斯GDP将大幅下降约10%，甚至更多，但现实却呈现出不同的景象。从宏观指标来看，俄罗斯经济依然强劲：工业生产、GDP和投资活动等关键因素仍保持弹性。这反映了俄罗斯经济很好地适应了不断变化的经济格局，十分值得称赞。
在短短一年内，西方国家在俄罗斯的贸易中所占的份额下降了约13%。与此同时，与法语国家的交易份额相应增长了13%。中国取代此前的欧盟（EU），成为俄罗斯的主要贸易伙伴。国内生产和从中国及其他国家的进口抵消了俄罗斯对西方国家的进口依赖。
通过对外贸易结构的战略性转变，西方制裁对俄罗斯经济的影响得到了缓解。俄罗斯强调以本国货币进行交易，而不是使用美元和欧元，为此建立了新的贸易结算机构，以便利支付和交易，避免对俄罗斯的内部和外部经济结构造成损害。
因此，制裁不但没有阻碍俄罗斯的增长，反而成为创造新机会的催化剂，促进了新的经济模式、国际关系框架和以增长为导向的机构的发展。从本质上讲，实施制裁促使俄罗斯探索经济增长的创新途径，促使其从依赖西方的金融和经济架构，转向为所有贸易国的集体福祉而设计的新框架。
不要在意那些国家的看法
知事：美国和一些西方国家不断诋毁中俄全面战略协作伙伴关系，对中俄正常的外交对话进行各种污名化，甚至还不断施加压力，要求中俄两国保持距离。您对此有何看法？
谢尔盖·格拉济耶夫：不要在意那些不友好国家对中俄全面战略协作伙伴关系的看法。俄罗斯和中国作为两个主权国家，可以根据各自的利益所在来发展两国关系。
俄中两国领导人定期会晤，这是最高水平的信任和相互理解。我们两国在重大外交政策问题上的立场相似，在联合国安理会的投票也经常一致。
俄中贸易发展良好，在西方对俄贸易禁运后，俄罗斯从中国进口的产品在很大程度上取代了从欧洲进口的产品，俄罗斯的能源资源和许多原材料的出口都转向了中国。
中俄互免旅游签证，俄罗斯游客到黑河市吃早餐。
目前，就合资企业的数量和与中国经济合作的程度而言，中美和中日的贸易额远远超过了中俄的贸易额，后者未来还有很大的增长空间。俄中在科技方面的合作还可以进一步深入，并发展彼此的开发性金融机构和大银行之间的密切合作。
最后，通过增进大学间学术交流和双学历培养等形式，扩大两国在教育和科学领域的合作至关重要。还有必要通过在第三国的联合投资，形成俄中竞争优势结合的合力。
在第三国的联合投资活动将增强互相信任，形成俄中竞争优势结合的合力。如果俄中两国共同倡议推出一种与一揽子贸易商品挂钩的新型国际数字货币，将具有重要意义，很有可能得到其他金砖国家和上合组织国家的支持。采用新型国际数字货币可以使我们摆脱对部分不友好国家的依赖——不仅在支付和结算领域，而且在定价方面——并促进世界向新的经济格局过渡。
图源：视觉中国
以下为本次采访的英文原文：
The Sergey Glaziev Interview: "Is Russia Leaning on China? Ignore the Noise!"
In recent years, the global trend of de-dollarization and expanding local currency settlements has become increasingly evident. China and Russia, as major global economies and important trading partners, have continuously made new progress in their local currency settlement cooperation.
Data shows that in the first 10 months of this year, the trade volume between China and Russia surpassed $196.4 billion, making it clear that surpassing the annual goal of $200 billion is a foregone conclusion. Russian Prime Minister Mishustin stated last month that over 90% of cross-border settlements between Russia and China are now conducted in local currencies.
While China and Russia steadily advance comprehensive and multi-layered cooperation, Western media has begun to adopt a two-faced approach, on the one hand, emphasizing the collaboration between China and Russia to resist the West, and on the other hand, claiming that Russia is becoming dependent on China, attempting to sow discord.
How should we view the denigration and provocation from the West? What developments has Russia achieved under the Belt and Road Initiative(BRI) framework? How is the integration progress between the Eurasian Economic Union and the "Belt and Road" initiative? What aspects will be the focus in the next steps? How is Russia vigorously promoting "de-dollarization," and what actions has it taken?
In collaboration with RDCY, Capital News has launched the “Global Governance Forum” section. Sergey Glaziev, a Russian politician and economist, member of the National Financial Council of the Bank of Russia, and the Commissioner for Integration and Macroeconomics within the Eurasian Economic Commission, the executive body of the Eurasian Economic Union, shared his views on the Belt and Road Initiative, China-Russian ties and other issues with us.
Sergey Glaziev stressed that in order to avoid the further acceleration of American aggression and to create new opportunities in economic growth, Russia needs more safe financial infrastructure. It couldn't use American dollar anymore, as well as European Euro, British Pound, or German Mark. For Russia, they all are toxic currencies, which are used by the Western countries, as an instrument of political pressure, and even as a weapon against independent nations. Notably, more than half of the trade between Russia and China is international currencies, and almost half of the export is already paid by Russian ruble. Russia and China are moving international currencies, and we are speaking about the introduction of the new essential currency, which will be based on the international treaty.
Glazyev had warned for years that it was imperative for Moscow to sell out foreign exchange assets placed in the US, Britain, France, Germany, and others which later ended up unleashing sanctions against Russia.
These assets should have been replaced by investments in gold and other precious metals; stocks of highly liquid commodity values; in securities of the EAEU, SCO, and BRICS member states; and in the capital of international organizations with Russian participation, such as the Eurasian Development Bank, the CIS Interstate Bank, and the BRICS Development Bank.
In a this interview, Sergey Glaziev also emphasized the inevitability of a global trade currency in the current economic context.
Glaziev defined the existing monetary system as “irrational” and advocated a substantial overhaul of the international financial framework. He pointed to the declining importance of the US dollar as a factor in this.
The declining prevalence of greenbacks in the global economy has highlighted the need for an alternative unit of account for global transactions. Therefore, the idea of a single currency may turn out to be more plausible than previously thought.
In light of the growth and importance of BRICS has emerged discussions on a single currency, exploring different approaches such as digital assets or pegging it to gold.
Glaziev argues that a BRICS trade currency may indeed be inevitable, he stresses that the countries that determine global economic development want to fundamentally reform the international financial system.
Glaziev also emphasized that dependence on the US dollar is decreasing, especially within the Eurasian Economic Union, where national currencies mostly replace it.
In conclusion, Glaziev confirmed that the BRICS bloc has a viable model for such a currency, based not only on selected national currencies of the member countries, but also on a basket of traded goods.
As for the Belt and Road Initiative, Over these 10 years, we have stayed committed to this founding mission. Thanks to our joint efforts, Belt and Road international cooperation has gotten off the ground, grown rapidly and produced fruitful outcomes.
Belt and Road cooperation has extended from the Eurasian continent to Africa and Latin America. More than 150 countries and over 30 international organizations have signed Belt and Road cooperation documents. We have held two sessions of the BRF before, and have established over 20 specialized multilateral cooperation platforms under the BRI.
Belt and Road cooperation has progressed from "sketching the outline" to "filling in the details," and blueprints have been turned into real projects. A large number of signature projects and "small yet smart" people-centered programs have been launched.
Belt and Road cooperation has expanded from physical connectivity to institutional connectivity. Important guiding principles for high-quality Belt and Road cooperation have been laid down, which include the principle of "planning together, building together, and benefiting together," the philosophy of open, green and clean cooperation, and the goal of pursuing high-standard, people-centered and sustainable cooperation.
Over these 10 years, we have endeavored to build a global network of connectivity consisting of economic corridors, international transportation routes and information highway as well as railways, roads, airports, ports, pipelines and power grids. Covering the land, the ocean, the sky and the Internet, this network has boosted the flow of goods, capital, technologies and human resources among countries involved and injected fresh vitality into the millennia-old Silk Road in the new era.
Trains speeding along rail tracks, automobiles running on roads, flights connecting different countries, cargo ships breaking waves, and e-commerce bringing so much convenience to people -- they have all become symbols of international trade in the new era, just like camel caravans and the sailing ships were for the past age.
Hydro, wind and solar energy based power plants, oil and gas pipelines, and the increasingly smart and interconnected power transmission networks are removing the development bottleneck caused by energy shortage and fulfilling the dream of developing countries to achieve green and low-carbon development. These energy projects have become the oasis and lighthouse for sustainable development in the new era.
Brand new airports and harbors, smooth roads, and newly built industrial parks for business cooperation have created new economic corridors and new growth drivers, and have become the trading routes and staging posts of the new era.
Rich and colorful cultural years, art festivals, expos and exhibitions, Luban Workshops, people-to-people exchange programs like the Silk Road Community Building Initiative and the Brightness Action program, and deepening exchanges between non-governmental organizations, think tanks, media organizations, and the youth -- all these flourishing activities have composed a symphony of friendship in the new era.
When COVID-19 struck, the Belt and Road became a life-saving road. China provided more than 10 billion masks and 2.3 billion doses of vaccines to other countries and jointly produced vaccines with over 20 countries, making a special contribution to BRI partners' efforts in fighting COVID-19. And China also received valuable support from more than 70 countries when it was hit hard by the pandemic.
Belt and Road cooperation is based on the principle of "planning together, building together, and benefiting together." It transcends differences between civilizations, cultures, social systems, and stages of development. It has opened up a new path for exchanges among countries, and established a new framework for international cooperation. Indeed, the BRI represents humanity's joint pursuit of development for all.
Glaziev stressed that The Belt and Road initiative (BRI) stands out as the largest integration project in the world. During the progression of this project, the volume of trade between countries which are involved in this project has increased from $1 trillion to $2 trillion, marking a substantial increase. The investments facilitated by this initiative have experienced a remarkable upswing, surpassing the combined investments of the Asian and European development banks. Undoubtedly, this is the largest integration project in the world. I think that it is a good example for all the other countries, how the international economic relations should be organized in the post-liberal globalization era.
At the core of international economic relations during the liberal globalization phase was the emphasis on liberalizing foreign trade and current regulations. The idea of the liberal globalization was to give opportunity for international capital to flow free from one country to another. This ideology was used for the oligarchs, financial structures in the United States and Europe. So, the free trade and liberalization of currency regulations was in favor of American and European capital. And it was, to some extent, the zero-sum game, the American and European capital got into the countries and control the major source of revenues in those countries, and then take a huge profit away. Such kind of integration which happened in the European Union, shows that for a lot of countries, it was a disaster. The era of liberal globalization is now drawing to a close.
In the emerging international economic landscape, the focal point shifts from the liberalization of foreign trade to the idea of mutual investments. The Chinese initiatives—Belt and Road Initiative— exemplifies this shift, demonstrating how international economic cooperation can thrive based on mutual investments rather than rigid trade and currency regulations. We are not caring what kind of currency regulation is in this or that country. We are not care what is the trade regimes in this or other countries. This is the internal issue of the southern nations. The idea of Belt and Road initiative is to combine the competitive advantages in different countries to boost the production of goods and services, for the well-being of the population. The Belt and Road initiative is an example of the future mainstream of economic and international cooperation between countries. And we follow this route, we can combine our competitive advantages in the mutual investment projects in order to improve compatibility of our economies.
Moreover, we also noticed that the United States and some Western countries keep criticizing the comprehensive strategic partnership between China and Russia, stigmatizing their normal diplomatic dialogues and even exerting continuous pressure, urging the two countries to keep their distance.
Glaziev argues that Russia and China should not care about the opinion of the unfriendly countries regarding our comprehensive strategic partnership. Being the two sovereign powers, Russia and China can build their relations according to their own interests. Notably, The leaders of our countries have regular meetings, the highest level of trust and mutual understanding.
He suggested that Russia and China need to work seriously on the real content of our strategic comprehensive strategic partnership. First of all, we need large-scale joint investment projects in high-tech industries, for example, such as the creation of a wide-body long-haul passenger aircraft, the construction of nuclear power plant, etc. It is necessary to stimulate the development of joint productions, the expansion of “cooperative cooperation”. To do this, we need to work out the mechanisms of targeted lending for such projects. We should develop close cooperation between our development institutions and large banks.
He stressed that it is crucial to expand cooperation in the sphere of education and science. To do this, it is advisable to develop network forms of interaction between universities, the double diploma practice and academic mobility. Consortia and technological alliances are promising forms of cooperation.
Moreover, it is necessary to increase joint investments abroad in third countries. This activity strengthens trust and creates a synergy of Russia-China competitive advantages’ combining. A joint initiative of our countries to introduce a new international digital currency, tied to a basket of exchange-traded goods, would be very relevant and certainly be supported by other BRICS and SCO countries. Its introduction could make it possible to get rid of dependence on unfriendly countries – not only in the field of payments and settlements, but also in pricing – and facilitate the transition to a new world economic mode.
EAEU Successfully Aligns with the BRI
Capital News: In 2023, it will mark the 10th anniversary of the introduction of the "Belt and Road Initiative. The BRI, drawing inspiration from the ancient Silk Road and focusing on enhancing connectivity, aims to enhance policy, infrastructure, trade, financial and people-to-people connectivity, inject new impetus into the global economy, create new opportunities for global development, and build a new platform for international economic cooperation. As of June this year, China has signed over 200 cooperation agreements on jointly building the BRI with 152 countries and 32 international organizations. What’s your overall impression of the BRI?
Sergey Glaziev: The Belt and Road initiative (BRI) stands out as the largest integration project in the world. During the progression of this project, the volume of trade between countries which are involved in this project has increased from $1 trillion to $2 trillion, marking a substantial increase. The investments facilitated by this initiative have experienced a remarkable upswing, surpassing the combined investments of the Asian and European development banks. Undoubtedly, this is the largest integration project in the world. I think that it is a good example for all the other countries, how the international economic relations should be organized in the post-liberal globalization era.
At the core of international economic relations during the liberal globalization phase was the emphasis on liberalizing foreign trade and current regulations. The idea of the liberal globalization was to give opportunity for international capital to flow free from one country to another. This ideology was used for the oligarchs, financial structures in the United States and Europe. So, the free trade and liberalization of currency regulations was in favor of American and European capital. And it was, to some extent, the zero-sum game, the American and European capital got into the countries and control the major source of revenues in those countries, and then take a huge profit away. Such kind of integration which happened in the European Union, shows that for a lot of countries, it was a disaster. The era of liberal globalization is now drawing to a close.
In the emerging international economic landscape, the focal point shifts from the liberalization of foreign trade to the idea of mutual investments. The Chinese initiatives—Belt and Road Initiative— exemplifies this shift, demonstrating how international economic cooperation can thrive based on mutual investments rather than rigid trade and currency regulations. We are not caring what kind of currency regulation is in this or that country. We are not care what is the trade regimes in this or other countries. This is the internal issue of the southern nations. The idea of Belt and Road initiative is to combine the competitive advantages in different countries to boost the production of goods and services, for the well-being of the population. The Belt and Road initiative is an example of the future mainstream of economic and international cooperation between countries. And we follow this route, we can combine our competitive advantages in the mutual investment projects in order to improve compatibility of our economies.
Capital News: Russia is an important partner for China in the construction of the BRI. Russia President Vladimir Putin said that he sees China's Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) as a desire to cooperate on the global arena. He said that “we see that some perceive it as an attempt by the People's Republic of China to crush someone under itself, but we don't see this that way: we just see a desire for cooperation," Russia's RIA state news agency cited Putin as saying.” "The Belt and Road Initiative" promotes connectivity and economic development among participating countries, benefiting all parties involved and tangibly improving the well-being of the people in these jointly constructed nations. Has the BRI promoted Russia’s development? Could you share some examples or data with us?
Sergey Glaziev: According to the decision made by the leaders of China and Russia, they have officially proclaimed the integration of the Belt and Road Initiative with the Eurasian Economic Union.
Commencing this integration, we are utilizing the shared economic space of the Russian Eurasian Economic Union in order to create more opportunities for mutual investments together with the Chinese companies and development institutions. If we analyze the structure of these mutual investments, it becomes apparent that roughly half of these investments are in the transportation sector. Russia, as the geographically largest country in Eurasia, plays a huge role, commanding a significant portion of Eurasian continent. Its role in transit relations and connections between different countries is of paramount importance. It is quite clear that one of the most important advantages of the cooperation between Russia and other countries of Belt and Road Initiative is the modernization and construction of the new transportation corridors.
So, the primary focus of these initial investments lies in transportation infrastructure, including railroads, roads, and pipelines. The second important subject is electricity and energy. This sector occupies more than 20 % of mutual investments. Additionally, the construction of logistic centers of various commercial centers is also very important subject of our relations, accounting for approximately 20% of mutual investments between Russia and Belt and Road Initiative.
The Belt and Road Initiative is concentrated on the mutual investments. And today the mutual investments are a key locomotive for the treasure roles. We see the huge growth between the Eurasian Economic Union and China. Our cooperation, between Eurasian Economic Union and the Belt and Road Initiative, is based on the large-scale agreement about trade and economic cooperation between Eurasian economic countries and China, operates within a specially designed framework. A commission has been established to facilitate communication between our countries, outlining plans to promote economic cooperation, with a focus on investments and trade.
The results of this cooperative effort are evident in the remarkable growth of mutual trade. During the last 3 years, we have experienced an annual growth rate exceeding 30%. China has emerged as the region's largest partner, constituting approximately 24% of our foreign trade, 38% of our exports, and 18% of our imports. The whole volume of trade is expected to surpass $200 billion this year, representing a significant doubling of trade within the past three years. Notably, the trade level of $100 billion, reached five years ago, has now been effectively doubled, underscoring the success of our collaboration between the Eurasian Economic Union and the Belt and Road Initiative.
Capital News: The Russian-led Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU) is a key partner in China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), since it comprises the majority of territories which the BRI’s overland route, the Silk Road Economic Belt, needs to traverse as it crosses Central Asia on the way to Europe. What impact does the deep alignment between the EAEU and the BRI have on Russia and the entire Eurasian region? In which areas do these two entities have cooperation prospects? What has been the current progress, and what achievements have been made so far? What aspects will be the focus of attention in the next steps?
Sergey Glaziev: As you mentioned, we witnessed significant growth in our mutual trade and joint investments last year. At the same time, we have been actively improving our collaboration in the fields of regulation of trade and cooperation. For instance, we have made a mutual effort in order to improve the customs regulations, to simplify the custom procedures, to harmonize the technical regulations, particularly in the oversight of food products.
And, of course, we've introduced digital solutions for our trade documentation, the documentation covering transportation and goods. Our cooperation extends to customs affairs, where we exchange experiences in electronic trade and logistics—undoubtedly, one of the most crucial aspects of our partnership. The dialogue on the questions of the trade policy is going on very quickly. At the moment, China has ascended as the leader among our trading partners, holding the top position as the primary foreign investor and a major partner for Russia and other countries within the Eurasian Economic Union.
Capital News: You mentioned at this year’s Moscow Economic Forum that China has set an example for how to manage economic development under modern conditions, and the experiences of Chinese-style modernization are instructive for countries aspiring to integrate into the new economic order of the world today. Could you please elaborate further on your perspective, what specific experiences from China’s modernization journey do you believe are worth emulating?
Sergey Glaziev: China has really become central to world economic development, and it happened largely attributable to its innovative institutional system for regulating its economy. China serves as a compelling example of successfully combining diverse economic approaches together. It adeptly combines the wisdom of centrally planned economies found in social countries with the insights gained from market economies. This integration involves blending central strategic planning with market competition, and the private entrepreneurship with government control over the money creation and price regulation.
By this, China has effectively fostered very good conditions for the growth of production or introduction of the new technologies. This opportunitie have materialized in the remarkable growth rates of the Chinese economy.
China’s another miracle, is based on the new system of management, which was elaborated in China, taking together the advantages of the socialist and capitalist economists together. China still has and will have, I’m sure, the socialist ideology within its political and social system, and at the same time market mechanism in its economic system. These factors coming together create a huge competitive advantage of the Chinese national economy, allowing it to pursue its own industry interests and great new opportunities for economic cooperation among countries. China shows the good examples of international cooperation in forms of mutual investments. China serves as a compelling model for many countries, demonstrating how various factors of economic growth can be effectively combined to enhance the well-being and incomes of the population.
The social ideology creates constraints for market regulation, and only those private entrepreneurs would support from the state who create models, offer more services and make more contribution for the overall well-being of the society.
This kind of regulation of market by the criteria of the growth of living standards and the growth of production, give us a very good example how the country can mobilize all the resources for economic growth. And results of a Chinese experience of a very high risk of current growth can be used in the other countries as well. This experience is not only pertinent to the realms of construction, economics, trade, and investment relations but also offers insights into creating opportunities for economic growth within our respective national economies.
While the debate around this approach persists, but I’m sure that China shows a good example for the whole mankind, how you can organize the mobilization of all economic resources in favor of the growth of the wellbeing, of the population. The Chinese model demonstrates the efficacy of combining central planning and strategic management mechanisms with market entrepreneurship and competition to achieve maximum efficiency.
China has become the center of the new world economic motor. It shows an example for other countries that what institutions, what methods of market economic regulation should be used in order to achieve specific results.
Nearly All Sino-Russian Trade to Be Settled in Local Currencies in the Future
Capital News: "De-dollarization" is becoming a prominent topic in the international community. At this year's BRICS summit, Russia President Putin stated in a video address that the process of "de-dollarization" among BRICS nations is irreversible and gaining momentum. During the Russia-Turkey summit on September 4th, Turkey President Erdogan expressed support for Russia's initiative to settle a portion of trade in local currencies, and the central bank governors of both countries will hold discussions on the specific steps for currency settlement. What are your views on "de-dollarization," and why have many countries around the world recently been initiating this trend of moving away from the U.S. dollar?
Sergey Glaziev: The structural changes of developing economies, which take place because of changes of technological and economic modes. As usual, unfortunately, they are going through the road-keeper tour. The United States and its European allies are trying to use the advantages in the world financial system for political purposes attempting to maintain dominance over the world's reserve currency. It is increasingly evident that this secret war initiated by the Americans and Europeans is bound to be lost.
Their once-competitive advantages, such as the creation of the world currency as the model for a political structure, have waned. There is a diminishing belief in the American and Western political systems, as well as skepticism about using their currencies as secure instruments for savings and investments.
America, for sure, is facing losses in this economic war waged against Russia, China, and other independent nations. However, the consequences of this war extend beyond individual nations and pose an escalating threat to global stability.
In order to avoid the further acceleration of American aggression and to create new opportunities in economic growth, we need more safe financial infrastructure. It couldn't use American dollar anymore, as well as European Euro, British Pound, or German Mark. For us, they all are toxic currencies, which are used by the Western countries, as an instrument of political pressure, and even as a weapon against independent nations, which are trying to pursue their own economic and social policy, in order to avoid the further damage.
In response to the arrest of Russian currency reserves and the exclusion of Russia from the Western financial system by the United States and its European allies, we have opted to distance ourselves from the use of Western currencies.
The reliance on the American dollar, euro, or pound as reserve currencies in trade and investments has diminished. Efforts are underway to minimize the use of these currencies within the Regional Economic Union, where approximately 85% of mutual trade is now conducted in national currencies. Notably, more than half of the trade between Russia and China is international currencies, and almost half of the export is already paid by Russian ruble. We are moving international currencies, and we are speaking about the introduction of the new essential currency, which will be based on the international treaty.
This moment couldn't be stopped because we cannot use western currencies anymore. It poses a huge political risk, potentially leading to a loss in export revenues. We have to construct new instruments, which we can use to finance, mutual trade, mutual investments, and promote our cooperation. Transitioning to national currencies in foreign trades is the first step.
The second step will be the digitalization of national currencies used in the international trade. This digitalization is necessary in order to avoid sanctions, because we can use digital currencies and blockchain technology to circumvent punitive measures enforced by international banks involved in global transactions. The second step entails establishing a market for national digital currencies and social digital currencies, facilitating payments and international settlements between our countries.
The third step will be the introduction of a new international digital currency in order to finance our mutual projects, and to finance our mutual trades, enabling settlements and payments. This new international digital currency should be based on the two baskets: the first basket is the national currency of the contrast involved in this agreement; the second basket is the basket of commodities collectively produced and consumed.
According to our economic mathematical model, introducing a currency based on these two baskets proves to be a stable instrument that avoids inflation, issued transparently among participating countries in this new international payment system. We can introduce this new international currency in the nearest future. The technical aspects of constructing this currency are already in place, as we have a pilot model. I hope that in the near futures, BRICS countries, along with participants in the Belt and Road Initiative, will come together for an international conference to present this new international currency economic model and sign international agreement for its implementation. The introduction of this international currency is imminent, based on the features outlined.
Capital News: Several countries, including Indonesia, Iran, Russia, Argentina, are gradually shifting towards using the Chinese yuan (Renminbi) in trade settlements or investments. As China steadily advances the internationalization of the yuan, enhancing its role in international affairs and its sovereignty, what recommendations do you have in this regard?
Sergey Glaziev: At the moment, as I mentioned earlier, we are conducting trade in national currencies and the share of national currency usage is on the rise. In the case of Russia, China, being a key partner in foreign trade and a major foreign investor, of course, should participate in our mutual financial system. The opportunity for various central banks from different countries to participate in the Russian payment system is significant. We have also opened trading between the ruble and RMB on the Moscow Exchange, where the share of RMB in Moscow transactions surpasses that of the dollar and the euro. Consequently, the use of RMB is increasing steadily, proving to be more suitable for our mutual trade and investments. I'm sure that in the near future, nearly all trade between Russia and China will be settled in ruble and RMB.
If you're speaking what's about other Eurasian Economic Union countries, we observe similar trends— an increasing preference for the use of national currencies.
However, trading in national currencies is not optimal, because the major problem which still exists is the price formation. Our commodities' valuation is still dependent on exchanges in the United States, England, and Europe. Relying on prices established in other countries introduces volatility to commodity prices, posing substantial challenges in trade relations. It is impossible to plan long-term investments with the very high volatility of the commodities.
To address this challenge, we have to create our own Eurasian price formation system independent of Western influences, where the major role in price formation is played by the international speculation. You have to get rich from international speculators and create opportunities to hold direct relations between producers and consumers of commodities. And we shall move from the speculative prices to the long-term prices, to create price stability, which is very important for the stable and sustainable development of our countries. Achieving this objective is possible only through the introduction of a new international currency, because international currency have their own specific characteristics that contribute to volatility. The new currency we propose will be very stable and very useful, very comfortable, offering convenience not only for payments but also for price formation.
In any case, in spite of the fact that the share of RMB and ruble in our trade is going up, it would be imprudent to dismiss the project of introducing a new international reserve currency. This initiative aligns with our mutual interests and should not be overlooked. This raises a crucial question regarding sales.
Capital News: On September 4th, Russia President Putin, while hosting an energy-related meeting, mentioned that despite facing overt hostile actions and unlawful restrictions and sanctions from some countries, Russian energy enterprises have continued to develop overall. They have also successfully found new reliable partners in foreign trade. How has Russia been affected by the sanctions, and have the sanctions initiated by the United States and Western countries been successful? What is your evaluation of the U.S. sanctions policy?
Sergey Glaziev: As we see, according to the statistics, the Russian economy continues to grow. The sanctions didn't place any important role for the growth rates of Russian economy. Despite projections from entities such as the World Bank and IMF, which anticipated a substantial decline of around ten percent or more in Russian GDP, the reality portrays a different picture. The Russian economy maintains robust macroeconomic indicators; key factors such as industrial production, GDP, and investment activity remain resilient. This reflects a commendable adaptation of the Russian economy to the evolving economic landscape.
In just one year, the share of Western countries decreased about 13 % in our trade. while the share of transactions with French-speaking countries increased by a corresponding 13%. The European Union, once the primary trading partner, has been eclipsed by China emerging as the principal contributor. Import dependencies on Western countries have been offset by internal production and imports from China and other allied nations.
The impact of Western sanctions on the Russian economy has been mitigated through a strategic shift in the structure of foreign trade. We emphasize transactions in national currencies rather than using dollars and euros. We don't use Dollars and Euro anymore. New institutions have been established to facilitate payments and transactions, averting damage to the internal and external economic fabric of Russia. So, the sanctions, rather than impeding growth, have served as a catalyst for creating fresh opportunities, fostering the development of new economic models, international relations frameworks, and growth-oriented institutions.
In essence, the imposition of sanctions has spurred Russia to explore innovative pathways for economic growth and activity, prompting a shift from a Western-dependent financial and economic architecture to a new framework designed for the collective well-being of all participating countries.
Pay No Mind to the Opinions of Those Countries
Capital News: The United States and some Western countries keep criticizing the comprehensive strategic partnership between China and Russia, stigmatizing their normal diplomatic dialogues and even exerting continuous pressure, urging the two countries to keep their distance. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Sergey Glaziev: Firstly, we should not care about the opinion of the unfriendly countries regarding our comprehensive strategic partnership. Being the two sovereign powers, Russia and China can build their relations according to their own interests.
Secondly, The leaders of our countries have regular meetings, the highest level of trust and mutual understanding. Our states hold similar positions on major foreign policy issues, and they almost always vote the same way at the UN Security Council.
Russia-China trade turnover is developing well: after the embargo on trade with Russia imports from China largely replaced the discontinued imports from Europe, exports of Russian energy resources and many raw materials were reoriented to China. However, China-US and China-Japan trade turnover, i.e., trade with unfriendly countries for us, significantly exceeds the similar China-Russia indicator of economic cooperation activity. The current business cooperation has even more modest results: in terms of the number of joint ventures and the intensity of cooperative ties with China, Russia has much more weak positions than ASEAN countries, Pakistan, India and even unfriendly countries. Russia-China scientific and technical cooperation also needs the more intensive development.
Thirdly, we need to work seriously on the real content of our strategic comprehensive strategic partnership. First of all, we need large-scale joint investment projects in high-tech industries, for example, such as the creation of a wide-body long-haul passenger aircraft, the construction of nuclear power plant, etc. It is necessary to stimulate the development of joint productions, the expansion of “cooperative cooperation”. To do this, we need to work out the mechanisms of targeted lending for such projects. We should develop close cooperation between our development institutions and large banks.
Fourthly, it is crucial to expand cooperation in the sphere of education and science. To do this, it is advisable to develop network forms of interaction between universities, the double diploma practice and academic mobility. Consortia and technological alliances are promising forms of cooperation.
Moreover, it is necessary to increase joint investments abroad in third countries. This activity strengthens trust and creates a synergy of Russia-China competitive advantages’ combining. A joint initiative of our countries to introduce a new international digital currency, tied to a basket of exchange-traded goods, would be very relevant and certainly be supported by other BRICS and SCO countries. Its introduction could make it possible to get rid of dependence on unfriendly countries – not only in the field of payments and settlements, but also in pricing – and facilitate the transition to a new world economic mode.
